It is currently Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:02 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ] 
 Did our Blessed Lady Die? 
Author Message

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:13 am
Posts: 194
New post Did our Blessed Lady Die?
A question posed by "Hibernicus" from a book, which I will reference later:

"I would be grateful for your opinion on the question: Did Our Blessed Lady die? It is defined that she was assumed body and soul into heaven. Could one state that it is more in accordance with this definition to hold that Our Lady was already dead when the Assumption took place?"

Opinions with reasons for them will be given due consideration... keeping in mind that I do have the answer.

_________________
On the last day, when the general examination takes place, there will be no question at all on the text of Aristotle, the aphorisms of Hippocrates, or the paragraphs of Justinian. Charity will be the whole syllabus.

- St. Robert Bellarmine


Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:54 am
Profile E-mail

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:26 am
Posts: 146
Location: Western Australia
New post Re: Did our Blessed Lady Die?
Oh yeah! And where did you get the answer from?, Madam Katie!

I recon that although She didn't HAVE to die because She was not tainted with Original Sin She chose to die because She was one of us.

Let the fisticufs begin! Clear the Tea Room of valuable furniture!


Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:31 pm
Profile E-mail

Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:49 pm
Posts: 552
Location: Argentina
New post Re: Did our Blessed Lady Die?
Hi!

Reading the Summa some days ago I got this:

Quote:
III Pars, q. 27.

Article 3. Whether the Blessed Virgin was cleansed from the infection of the fomes?

Objection 1. It would seem that the Blessed Virgin was not cleansed from the infection of the fomes. For just as the fomes, consisting in the rebellion of the lower powers against the reason, is a punishment of original sin; so also are death and other corporeal penalties. Therefore the fomes was not entirely removed from her.

Reply to Objection 1. Death and such like penalties do not of themselves incline us to sin. Wherefore though Christ assumed them, He did not assume the fomes. Consequently in order that the Blessed Virgin might be conformed to her Son, from "whose fulness" her grace was derived, the fomes was at first fettered and afterwards taken away: while she was not freed from death and other such penalties.


Before this I have always thought St Thomas believed Our Lady hadn´t died :)

_________________
"Il n`y a qu`une tristesse, c`est de n`etre pas des Saints"

Leon Bloy


Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:33 pm
Profile E-mail

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:26 am
Posts: 146
Location: Western Australia
New post Re: Did our Blessed Lady Die?
Cristian! Jolly good of you to drop in.
Now, perhaps, poor Katie will have some respite from me trying to amuse myself by provoking the poor dear into some kind of apoplexy. :lol:

Anyhow, what's a fome? My dictionary only says it's a kind of fungus... doesn't sound very Uncle Tomish to me.


Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:12 am
Profile E-mail

Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:49 pm
Posts: 552
Location: Argentina
New post Re: Did our Blessed Lady Die?
Oldavid wrote:
Cristian! Jolly good of you to drop in.
Now, perhaps, poor Katie will have some respite from me trying to amuse myself by provoking the poor dear into some kind of apoplexy. :lol:


:D

Quote:
Anyhow, what's a fome? My dictionary only says it's a kind of fungus... doesn't sound very Uncle Tomish to me.


Fomes is what the text says: "consisting in the rebellion of the lower powers against the reason", that is, concupiscence, the tendency to sin we all have.
It is one of the consequences of original sin.

_________________
"Il n`y a qu`une tristesse, c`est de n`etre pas des Saints"

Leon Bloy


Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:55 pm
Profile E-mail

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:13 am
Posts: 194
New post Re: Did our Blessed Lady Die?
Cristian Jacobo wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
Cristian! Jolly good of you to drop in.
Now, perhaps, poor Katie will have some respite from me trying to amuse myself by provoking the poor dear into some kind of apoplexy. :lol:


:D



Okay, you two boys will now have to wait. That is your just desserts for daring to have a laugh at Her Haughtiness' expense!!!

_________________
On the last day, when the general examination takes place, there will be no question at all on the text of Aristotle, the aphorisms of Hippocrates, or the paragraphs of Justinian. Charity will be the whole syllabus.

- St. Robert Bellarmine


Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:25 pm
Profile E-mail

Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:32 am
Posts: 6
New post Re: Did our Blessed Lady Die?
Alright, here's my 2c.

I always thought that Our Lady did die because that makes her more like to her Son.

_________________
“Never act with a view to pleasing the world. Let us have the strength to bear criticisms and the disapproval of the world. Let us have no human respect. Provided that God is pleased, what does the rest matter?”
Card. R. Merry del Val


Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:40 pm
Profile E-mail

Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:13 am
Posts: 138
New post Re: Did our Blessed Lady Die?
I thought I read in Mary of Agreda's City of God that Our Lady died of love. No longer able to bear the separation from Our Lord once her mission on earth was fulfilled, she died from the force of her love of God. But I read that book a long time ago, so...

AMW


Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:59 pm
Profile

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:26 am
Posts: 146
Location: Western Australia
New post Re: Did our Blessed Lady Die?
AMWills wrote:
I thought I read in Mary of Agreda's City of God that Our Lady died of love. No longer able to bear the separation from Our Lord once her mission on earth was fulfilled, she died from the force of her love of God. But I read that book a long time ago, so...

AMW

Yes, that sounds like that mushy, sentimental old nun's style. I tried valiantly several times to read that several volumes but couldn't.

But, yes, translate that into plain speech and it pretty much means what I said above... She is co-redeemer to the fullest as we are all invited to be co-redeemers... "take up your cross and follow Me".


Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:55 pm
Profile E-mail

Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:37 pm
Posts: 25
New post Re: Did our Blessed Lady Die?
My birthday is August 13. Someone recently suggested that if Our Lady died, that might have been the day. That is at least briefly a happy thought; but truth is better. One could speculate that if she died, she would have been assumed into heaven almost instantaneously (on the 15th)... On the other hand, her Son didn't rise from the dead until the third day! So perhaps she did die on the 13th!

The only other obvious connection of August 13 with Our Lady is that it was the day that she did NOT appear to the children of Fatima, because they were in prison. But that keeps me humble and trusting - for she did appear to them soon after.

If it so happens that Our Lady died, what reason for hope is there!


Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:09 am
Profile

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:13 am
Posts: 194
New post Re: Did our Blessed Lady Die?
Answer to be posted tomorrow!

_________________
On the last day, when the general examination takes place, there will be no question at all on the text of Aristotle, the aphorisms of Hippocrates, or the paragraphs of Justinian. Charity will be the whole syllabus.

- St. Robert Bellarmine


Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:47 pm
Profile E-mail

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:26 am
Posts: 146
Location: Western Australia
New post Re: Did our Blessed Lady Die?
Katie wrote:
Answer to be posted tomorrow!

Ah! I don't think you need bother, Your Haughtiness. We already know the answer. And if your supposed authority disagrees with what we've decided we'll just ignore them anyway.
8)
:lol:


Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:17 pm
Profile E-mail
Site Admin

Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 2:30 pm
Posts: 4334
New post Re: Did our Blessed Lady Die?
EaglesWings wrote:
My birthday is August 13. Someone recently suggested that if Our Lady died, that might have been the day. That is at least briefly a happy thought; but truth is better. One could speculate that if she died, she would have been assumed into heaven almost instantaneously (on the 15th)... On the other hand, her Son didn't rise from the dead until the third day! So perhaps she did die on the 13th!

The only other obvious connection of August 13 with Our Lady is that it was the day that she did NOT appear to the children of Fatima, because they were in prison. But that keeps me humble and trusting - for she did appear to them soon after.

If it so happens that Our Lady died, what reason for hope is there!


EW,

Nice to see you back. :)

I won't ask what glorious age you will reach in a couple of weeks, but if I forget, HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

:)

_________________
In Christ our King.


Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:31 am
Profile E-mail

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:26 am
Posts: 146
Location: Western Australia
New post Re: Did our Blessed Lady Die?
EaglesWings wrote:
My birthday is August 13. Someone recently suggested that if Our Lady died, that might have been the day. That is at least briefly a happy thought; but truth is better. One could speculate that if she died, she would have been assumed into heaven almost instantaneously (on the 15th)... On the other hand, her Son didn't rise from the dead until the third day! So perhaps she did die on the 13th!

The only other obvious connection of August 13 with Our Lady is that it was the day that she did NOT appear to the children of Fatima, because they were in prison. But that keeps me humble and trusting - for she did appear to them soon after.

If it so happens that Our Lady died, what reason for hope is there!

I beg your pardon for seeming to ignore you, EW; I was a little preoccupied with trying to provoke HH.
Quote:
If it so happens that Our Lady died, what reason for hope is there!

Well, y' know, I'd recon that it's about the best reason for hope there is... She obviously believed in life after death, and in Redemption, and that She is part of It, and that Her Son is really a man, and that we all have a purpose other than sated appetites....

Anyway, do stay around; Her (malicious) Haughtiness is throwing some curly ones at us... maybe just so she can clear the Room and sweep up, but we like it here and we aint going nowhere.


Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:21 am
Profile E-mail

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:13 am
Posts: 194
New post Re: Did our Blessed Lady Die?
Welcome to The Bar, EaglesWings!

I like your reasoning regarding why the 13th may have been the date of Our Lady's death - they are ones I've not come across before.

Kind regards,
Katie

_________________
On the last day, when the general examination takes place, there will be no question at all on the text of Aristotle, the aphorisms of Hippocrates, or the paragraphs of Justinian. Charity will be the whole syllabus.

- St. Robert Bellarmine


Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:57 am
Profile E-mail

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:13 am
Posts: 194
New post Re: Did our Blessed Lady Die?
Oldavid wrote:

Anyway, do stay around; Her (malicious) Haughtiness is throwing some curly ones at us... maybe just so she can clear the Room and sweep up, but we like it here and we aint going nowhere.


Ah, that's what I like. Appreciative patrons. Even if they have decided earlier that my authorities won't trump them if in disagreement. :)

_________________
On the last day, when the general examination takes place, there will be no question at all on the text of Aristotle, the aphorisms of Hippocrates, or the paragraphs of Justinian. Charity will be the whole syllabus.

- St. Robert Bellarmine


Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:05 am
Profile E-mail

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:13 am
Posts: 194
New post Re: Did our Blessed Lady Die?
Taken from “Problems in Theology” Vol. II, John Canon McCarthy, D.D., D.C.I., Former Professor of Moral Theology and Canon Law, St. Patrick’s College, Maynooth and of Moral Theology, University College, Dublin. 1960.

I would clearly be impossible to give here any very full discussion of the question raised by ‘Hibernicus.’ The question of Our Lady’s death has been discussed and disputed over the centuries, and more particularly and more keenly in recent times since the definition of hte dogmas of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption.

It is admitted by all that there is little reference in the early patristic writings to the death or burial-place of Our Lady. And the references usually invoked are far from conclusive or compelling. Yet, by the scholastic period, the view had come to be firmly and widely accepted that Our Lady did really die. It was claimed that this view accorded best with other points of Mariology. Mary was a creature with a passible and mortal body and was, therefore, per se, subject to the universal law of death which encompassed even Christ in virtue of His human nature. And since Christ died, it was fitting that Our Lady should die also in order to complete her assimilation to her Divine Son, and to demonstrate her co-operation and association with His work. It was thought too, again as in the case of Christ, that death was an essential prelude to resurrection and glorification. Thus the question of Our Lady’s death was linked up with her Assumption. Nevertheless, at every period there were dissenting voices. There were some writers who held that Mary did not die, that her sinless soul was never separated from her sinless body, that she was, by special privilege, or by an extension or corollary of her special privileges, exempted from the universal law of death. This minority view gathered strength after the definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. By a singular privilege of grace Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, preserved free from all taint and guilt of original sin. It was this sin that brought death into the world, and since Our Lady was exempt from the law of original sin it would fittingly follow that she should likewise be exempted from the law of death which was a direct consequence of the sin.

The whole question of Our Lady’s death is brilliantly discussed in a work published in 1944, La Mort et L’Assumption De La Sainte Vierge. The author, Father M. Jugie, one of the foremost Mariologists of our times, marshals all the arguments and objections, historical, theological and liturgical. His conclusion is that there is no decisive proof that Our Lady died. Father Jugie personally favours the view that Mary did not die, and proposes many suasory reasons which point to that conclusion: ‘raisons qui rendent plausible l’immortalite de fait de la Mere de Dieu.’ [Moderator comment: Google translate: ‘reasons which make plausible the immortality of the Mother of God.’] Among these reasons are: Mary’s right to escape death, a right based upon her Immaculate Conception; the difficulty of finding a reasonable cause for Mary’s death after the achievement of Calvary; the uselessness of her death if it was to be immediately followed by her resurrection and glorification; she should share the privilege of the just who are living at the last day; they will not die etc. Yet our author concludes:

Voilá les raisons qui nous sont venues á l’esprit en jouant le róle d’un théologien partisan de l’immortalité de fait de la Sainte Vierge. Mais il ne s’agit que d’un róle; car nous n’entendons nullement décider si Marie est morte ou si elle est restée immortelle. Pour décider il faudrait avoir des preuves décisives en faveur de l’une des deux théses ou, si l’on veut, des deux hypothéses. Or nous avons montré que ces preuves manquent aussi bien pour l’une que pour l’autre. Qant aux raisons de convenance que l’on peut faire valoir en faveur de chacune d’elles, nous venons de les exposer sans prétendre avoir épuisé le sujet. Au lecteur de juger de leur valeur.
[Google translate: These are the reasons we came to mind playing the role of a theologian believer in immortality because of the Blessed Virgin. But there is only one role, for we have no intention of deciding whether Mary died or if she remained immortal. To decide it would be decisive evidence in favor of one or two arguments, if you will, the two hypotheses. Now we have shown that lack such evidence both for one another. Qant for reasons of convenience that it can be argued for each of them, we just expose them without pretending to have exhausted the subject. The reader to judge their value.]

Father Jugie wrote before the definition of the dogma of the Assumption. The question naturally arises, it is the question uppermost in our correspondent’s mind, whether this solemn definition has thrown any new light on the question of Our Lady’s death. The dogma defined was that, ‘the Immaculate Mother of God, Mary ever Virgin, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul to heavenly glory.’ This definition avoids, and beyond doubt deliberately, any mention of the death of Our Lady. It refers to what happened on the completion of the course of her earthly life – expleto terrestris vitae cursu. This is a neutral phrase: it does not give any indication as to how the course of Our Lady’s earthly life was completed. Nor can we find in the Apostolic Constitution, which enshrines the definition, any statement suggesting the view that Our Lady really died as the more acceptable. Indeed, it can be argued that the document of the definition demonstrates that the death of the Blessed Virgin was not an essential prerequisite of her Assumption. In other words, her death and her Assumption can be considered separately and independently – though, as Jugie notes, these two facts were inextricably associated in the discussion of the earlier theologians. The definition prescinds from any decision on the question of Mary’s death. This question remains open for free discussion among the theologians. The doctrine of the Assumption must be accepted on Divine and Catholic faith. It can, perhaps, be argued further that, in its emphasis on the very close connection between the privileges of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Our Lady, the Apostolic Constitution suggests her freedom not merely from original sin, but also from the consequences of that sin, namely death.

To reply directly, then, to our correspondent’s final question; in our view, it cannot be stated that it is more in accordance with the definition to hold that Our Lady died before her Assumption. At a minimum, it is equally in accordance with the definition to hold that Our Lady did not die at all.

_________________
On the last day, when the general examination takes place, there will be no question at all on the text of Aristotle, the aphorisms of Hippocrates, or the paragraphs of Justinian. Charity will be the whole syllabus.

- St. Robert Bellarmine


Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:16 am
Profile E-mail

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:13 am
Posts: 194
New post Re: Did our Blessed Lady Die?
Oh, I didn't put my view in yet. :-)

Prior to this thread I thought Our Lady did not die but fell asleep. However, after reading Cristian's post on St. Thomas I have changed my opinion. I would never even think about going against St. Thomas on anything!

_________________
On the last day, when the general examination takes place, there will be no question at all on the text of Aristotle, the aphorisms of Hippocrates, or the paragraphs of Justinian. Charity will be the whole syllabus.

- St. Robert Bellarmine


Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:18 am
Profile E-mail

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:26 am
Posts: 146
Location: Western Australia
New post Re: Did our Blessed Lady Die?
Katie wrote:
Oh, I didn't put my view in yet. :-)

Prior to this thread I thought Our Lady did not die but fell asleep. However, after reading Cristian's post on St. Thomas I have changed my opinion. I would never even think about going against St. Thomas on anything!

Hmmm. I think Uncle Tom's discussion/conclusions on the Immaculate Conception would not be acceptable today. And his view that a human soul is not infused until 40 - 60 days after conception would have to be regarded with some suspicion.

While I much love and admire Uncle Tom's brilliant logic, there are some things he had no way of knowing about. He was not an infallible carrier of a divine revelation but a brilliant thinker who devised a brilliant system of using logic to explain the Faith and to sort out facts from fables.

He said that he "stood on the shoulders of giants" and I am perfectly confident that he would want us to stand on his shoulders to view the wonders of Creation too.

Anyhow, I think that even your authority-figure will concede that we are at liberty to believe that the Great Mother chose to die as the fullness of co-operation with Her Boy's Redemptive Act. He didn't have to die; He was sinless. She didn't have to die; She was sinless. They both chose to die so that sins could be forgiven and Divine Justice preserved.


Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:25 pm
Profile E-mail

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:13 am
Posts: 194
New post Re: Did our Blessed Lady Die?
Oldavid wrote:
Hmmm. I think Uncle Tom's discussion/conclusions on the Immaculate Conception would not be acceptable today. And his view that a human soul is not infused until 40 - 60 days after conception would have to be regarded with some suspicion.


You are quite right, Odd. I've seen many people when losing a Thomistic argument throw out, "But, he was wrong about the Immaculate Conception". I have grown to thoroughly dislike (to put it mildly) this tactic. (Not saying you did it.) I think they are wrong to say he was wrong, I have heard the arguments for and against on the Immaculate Conception subject and made my judgment some time ago. I cannot expound on it now, the details are down the memory hole! Maybe someone else would if others are interested. Anyway, I think its not as clear cut as many believe, and my view is that there is NO way someone like me is going to pit myself against St. Thomas and find him wrong. Yes, I know saints aren't infallible and all that, but that's my position. I think it is preposterous, to use a massive understatement, to think that I could be right against him, so my view is that if something seems amiss to my judgment then I either haven't understood the question correctly or the answer.

BTW, my view is the same on St Pius the X and ... my husband. :wink:

Oldavid wrote:

Anyhow, I think that even your authority-figure will concede that we are at liberty to believe that the Great Mother chose to die as the fullness of co-operation with Her Boy's Redemptive Act. He didn't have to die; He was sinless. She didn't have to die; She was sinless. They both chose to die so that sins could be forgiven and Divine Justice preserved.


Yes, he did concede either view was tolerated. That's the beauty of our faith, that there are some things that we can take different stances on, as long as and up until the Church pronounces. It's a great object lesson in how we can be opinionated without hitting others over the head to agree with us.


Anything I've said here that you disagree with, Odd? :)

_________________
On the last day, when the general examination takes place, there will be no question at all on the text of Aristotle, the aphorisms of Hippocrates, or the paragraphs of Justinian. Charity will be the whole syllabus.

- St. Robert Bellarmine


Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:33 am
Profile E-mail

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:13 am
Posts: 194
New post Re: Did our Blessed Lady Die?
Oh, I just remembered that Mary of Agreda agrees with St. Thomas on mediate animation. Just thought I'd put that one out there especially for you Oldavid. She's not on my infallible list though.

_________________
On the last day, when the general examination takes place, there will be no question at all on the text of Aristotle, the aphorisms of Hippocrates, or the paragraphs of Justinian. Charity will be the whole syllabus.

- St. Robert Bellarmine


Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:43 am
Profile E-mail

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:26 am
Posts: 146
Location: Western Australia
New post Re: Did our Blessed Lady Die?
Katie wrote:
You are quite right, Odd. I've seen many people when losing a Thomistic argument throw out, "But, he was wrong about the Immaculate Conception". I have grown to thoroughly dislike (to put it mildly) this tactic. (Not saying you did it.) I think they are wrong to say he was wrong, I have heard the arguments for and against on the Immaculate Conception subject and made my judgment some time ago. I cannot expound on it now, the details are down the memory hole! Maybe someone else would if others are interested. Anyway, I think its not as clear cut as many believe, and my view is that there is NO way someone like me is going to pit myself against St. Thomas and find him wrong. Yes, I know saints aren't infallible and all that, but that's my position. I think it is preposterous, to use a massive understatement, to think that I could be right against him, so my view is that if something seems amiss to my judgment then I either haven't understood the question correctly or the answer.

BTW, my view is the same on St Pius the X and ... my husband. :wink:

Anything I've said here that you disagree with, Odd? :)

Of course there is! What do you think I am? A sycophantic "yes man"?

I can share your deference to Uncle Tom and Uncle Giuseppe, but I have reservations about the husband. :)


Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:09 am
Profile E-mail

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:13 am
Posts: 194
New post Re: Did our Blessed Lady Die?
Oldavid wrote:
I can share your deference to Uncle Tom and Uncle Giuseppe, but I have reservations about the husband. :)


Oh, I am shocked. You must be the Odd one out. :lol:

_________________
On the last day, when the general examination takes place, there will be no question at all on the text of Aristotle, the aphorisms of Hippocrates, or the paragraphs of Justinian. Charity will be the whole syllabus.

- St. Robert Bellarmine


Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:42 am
Profile E-mail

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:26 am
Posts: 146
Location: Western Australia
New post Re: Did our Blessed Lady Die?
Katie wrote:
Oh, I am shocked. You must be the Odd one out. :lol:

Don't you believe it! There are more of us "out there".


Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:12 pm
Profile E-mail
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ] 


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group.
Designed by Vjacheslav Trushkin for Free Forums/DivisionCore.